Hello everybody, I'm glad to be back here after a lengthy vacation. I finally decided on a subject to cover. I feel that it is quite a serious situation. Please watch the vlog to learn why it concerns the deaf community in a big way. The vlog is captioned.
After watching the vlog, I hope you are now more aware of how serious this situation is becoming. The HDMI is becoming the standard of watching HD contents on HDTV. If we don’t do something soon, it may be too late. The damage is already being done as we speak.
To file a complaint with the FCC (Federal Communications Comission), you can click here to enter the page on their website. I hope you will do your part and support the deaf community in fighting the FCC’s way of approving technology to be used by the public. If a new cable, equipment and more are inaccessible to the deaf and hard of hearing, they should not be approved for mainstream market.
The change needs to be made now. Not tomorrow, not next week, not in a month, not in a year, not in a decade.
NOW!
UPDATE: Thanks to Bill Creswell for the great suggestion. You can direct your complaints directly to the HDMI group too as well. Click here to contact them.
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9/28/2008 12:04 PM
I am student of Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) and also I have been researching HDTV issues with the Closed Caption. I have noticed that company more became careless about the closed caption because of Federal Communications Commission (FCC)didn't update their closed caption requires for digital tv "Any larger than 13" analog TV must install with closed caption decoder." That's explain why most newer company more became careless about it.
9/28/2008 2:24 PM
Scary, huh? Thanks to folks like you and Steven, we older people can sit back and comfortably know that the situation will be taken care of!
Your first video in your new home! I like the colors they go good with your coloring. Ha, ha.
Lantana
9/28/2008 4:37 PM
That's odd... I bought a 46 inch HDTV recently and Comcast come to the house to install the HDMI box. Hooked up the HDMI cable to the TV and I get the captions beautifully...even on the HD programs.
9/28/2008 5:13 PM
HDMI is my best friend. You have to understand that DVR do have build in CC setting. You need to setup work with HDMI. It work beautiful like what Red Sox Fan said.
Even, my PS3 didnt work with CC but most blu ray have subtitle ready. Also, my blu ray player have CC build in. It work fine.
Guess, You dont know how to set proper way.
9/28/2008 5:14 PM
Steven, LOL.. You are RIT student. I grad from RIT. Obviously that you didnt do your research enuff. Tsk tsk shame on you!
9/28/2008 7:31 PM
Thank you, Banjo, for alerting us.
I wonder if you could send a link of your vlog to the NAD's president
Nancy Bloch? She would be grateful.
Jean
9/28/2008 8:13 PM
Anonymous,
The CC on these TV receivers and DVRs you are speaking is burnt onto the video. It has a CC decoder built in these devices. Like I said in the vlog, I said that you cannot disable the CC after recording if you use the CC decoder built in your TV receiver.
It is an established fact that you cannot transmit CC data through HDMI cables.
I know how to set up CC on my TV properly. I would prefer it if I would be able to use CC on my HDTV and not from the TV receiver. It does matter when you try to record contents off the TV, the CC signal should be kept intact but it shouldn't be burnt onto the image.
Red Sox Fan, you may be talking about the TV receiver which has a CC decoder built in. The difference is, the CC is burnt onto the video instead of sending the actual CC signal through the HDMI cable which is not possible. That's what I mentioned in my vlog.
9/28/2008 8:18 PM
Anyway, some of you seem to be confused on what is the point of this vlog.
The point is, the HDMI cable itself cannot transmit CC signals. The fact is, the FCC should mandate CC signals to be a part of the spec on cables that they intend to put onto the mainstream market.
TV receivers, DVRs, subtitles on DVD and Blu-ray discs are irrelevant as they are not CC signals. We are talking about the CC signals being stripped or blocked from being transmitted through the HDMI cable.
It is becoming more commonplace for TV receivers to include CC decoders built in, but that doesn't make it okay for the HDMI cable to exclude the CC signal.
9/28/2008 8:59 PM
Banjo,
I used to run HDMI cables from my set up box to my HDTV and the CC's worked just fine. This was with Comcast...using a Samsung set up box. Then I switched to Time Warner...and used a Scientific Atlantic set up box...with HDMI cables...did not work.
Now I am on AT&T U-Verse...I will try my HDMI cable and see what happens...
9/28/2008 9:08 PM
J.J., that was the TV receiver that was doing the decoding for the CC, not the TV.
The HDMI itself cannot transmit CC signals. Instead of transmitting CC signals, your TV receiver decoded the CC and forced it to become a part of the video.
So as a result, the CC will be permanently burned onto the video. If you can, please take the time to do a little research and you will come to discover that HDMI cables are in fact not able to transmit CC at all.
Deaf people may think they are getting CC through HDMI, but they aren't. It is the TV receivers that is making the CC a part of the image.
9/29/2008 6:47 AM
It should probably be brought directly to the HDMI group, that determines the specifications -
# HITACHI
# PANASONIC
# PHILIPS
# SILICON IMAGE
# SONY
# THOMSON
# TOSHIBA
http://www.hdmi.org/contact/index.aspx
9/29/2008 9:17 AM
Banjo,
You still misunderstand about HDMI. It have do nothing with this transmit cc signals to your HDTV. Because the companies agreed that every equipments such as DVD, DVR, and consoles are responsible to provide cc decoder thur hdmi cable to TV. Some HDTV willing to add decoder CC such as Sony. So, the TV companies are required to add CC decoder for analog cable not hdmi.
Speak of permanently printed on video? I am able to copy to DVD and my kids are able to watch movie without cc. Its closed caption not open caption. Maybe you use program to capture whole images into movie that where it permanetly printed on it?
Again, we are wasting our time to discuss with you. You have to tell us what brand do you have? Smile!
9/29/2008 11:01 AM
Bill, thanks for the tip.
9/29/2008 11:05 AM
Anonymous, you don't quite get the big picture.
When you said that you can copy DVD and the CC is still on it. You obviously copied the DVD using a DVD recorder. So all of the digital data will remain intact.
I am talking about real-time recording through a HDMI cable. We are not talking about the brands of equipments we own.
We are talking about the HDMI cable. All of the companies are required to make HDMI cables the same in order to receive the certification from HDMI.
Bill Creswell is the one who had a good suggestion.
9/29/2008 1:03 PM
Yes, Banjo...that was my point...the set up box/receiver is the issue as to why the CC's do not work and you need to deal with the cable/dsl/satellite companies.
However, it appears that you are doing something differently? In 2009, everybody in the US is going digital and we all will need receivers/set up boxes or a converter from the government by then. So, the fact that HDMI cannot transmit captions is not really an issue for us as we all already have receivers and set up boxes...I have not used my TV to caption anything for about 4 years now...
Do you prefer to have your TV decode the CC's? Why do you want to do so? Unsure??
You also said: "So as a result, the CC will be permanently burned onto the video."
Are you taping something or what? Please clarify?
9/29/2008 1:33 PM
First, HDTV captioning is much more customizable and look far, far better than the CC styles they offer on the TV receivers. Plus, people pay for their HDTVs, I paid for mine. I want to be able to use the CC on my TV and not from the TV receiver. Options should be made available to us and not force us to use their inferior products.
Second, I am not trying to tape anything. I'm telling everybody that if they buy a HDTV with HDMI support, they should be made aware of the fact that HDMI cannot transmit CC signals. That's a real problem when you want to use a Blu-ray player to play DVDs too. If the DVD has no subtitles but do offer CC, you still cannot use it through the HDMI cable.
Third, it's a very little thing to ask for considering how cheap it is to make HDMI cables. I mean dirt cheap. It would be much less costly for the deaf and the industry to allow the HDMI cables to do such a simple task.
Nearly no DVD players with HDMI support are able to decode CC internally. People do have their preferences on how their CC should look.
People should be able to get as many options as they can out of their HDTV that they paid for. A lot of HDTVs come equipped with CC decoders but they aren't being used because of the HDMI cable not allowing the signal to pass through.
The point is, people still use CC and the HDMI cable should be able to carry the CC signal instead of blocking it. They still update the HDMI cable from time to time and they will continue to do so.
Supposedly someone wants to record a TV program onto a disc in their DVD recorder with HDMI support, they would have to connect it to a TV receiver. However, if the CC is not turned on, when it is recorded, the CC signal will be not on the disc because it cannot make its way through the HDMI cable. With a RCA (composite) cable, even with the CC turned off, the CC will still make its way through to the DVD player, but not HDMI. However, you cannot get HD quality video footage Not everyone want to make the CC a part of the picture. But they do want the CC signal to remain intact within the recorded contents so they can turn it on when they want to.
It's not really a subject that should be debated. It should had been a part of the spec from the very beginning because of equal access to communication for the deaf and hard of hearing.
Like I said, it's quite a small thing to ask for. A very small thing.
9/29/2008 9:29 PM
Thanks, Banjo, for trying to illustrate the HDMI CC captioning problem. I've been doing some research into HDTV as I'm aware that the industry will be going digital soon and we'll have to replace our analog TV with its CC decoder soon.
Interesting, that us deafies expect the CC, but our hearing family or hearing kids sometimes don't want to see CC on recorded HD stuff, when we're not around...:) Understandable, but we should respectfully request that CC be available thru the HDMI cable, so that people of all stripes have the options of having CC or NOT! And not hafta mess with a damn decoder box in the first place.
Ann_C
9/30/2008 2:24 PM
Ah, I get it now....
You run the CC using your TV.
I don't because the TV I bought has so-so CC's and I prefer the options on the TV receiver.
Nonetheless, I agree that HDMI cables should transmit CC signals.
How should I fill out the FCC complaint form to specify HDMI cables? What exactly did you fill out?
9/30/2008 4:10 PM
Banjo,
You should look at the HDCP license agrement from Digital-CP, LLC (http://www.captions.org/2008/09/hdmi-does-not-work-for-captioning.html). HDCP stands for High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection and it is required part of the HDMI specification. As you scroll down to Section 3.1 of Exhibit C (pg 38) and you will see that Presentation Devices (devices that RECEIVE HDMI signaling - including digital televisions) are not allowed to record content coming from HDMI. This means that you cannot LEGALLY copy content from an HDMI interface.
9/30/2008 6:24 PM
J.J., I cannot fill out since I do not live in the USA. You would have to click onto the first one where "Disability" is mentioned since it has CC on the list. However, you can also send an e-mail to the HDMI group. The link is available at the end of my blog above.
Anonymous, that is why they need to change the copyright laws in the USA. It is becoming ridiculously tight where consumers cannot even legally make backup copies of their DVDs, Blu-ray disc and more or shrink them down to use them on iPod. As long as they don't share them, it shouldn't be illegal. What about people who have Home Theatre PC? Shouldn't they be legally entitled to storing their DVDs onto hard drives to be used for the Home Theatre PC?
It's quite a valid reason why they need to change the way copyright laws work because the consumers shouldn't be made out to be criminals. The pirates who upload copyrighted materials to the internet for everybody to download or buy should be held accountable.
Although, from what I know, it may be only illegal if the content itself is HCDP-enabled. It is part of the HDMI spec, but the content that goes through the HDMI is not required to use HDCP. What happen is that when you try to record anything that is HDCP-enabled, they will be downsampled to a lower resolution or either blocked, scrambled, etc.
They did the same thing with DVD players in the past. Didn't make a difference though since people could decrypt and burn the DVDs on their computers anyway.
Still, thanks for mentioning that.
10/01/2008 8:59 AM
Look at old blog issue with HDMI as well...
http://grantlairdjr.com/wp/2006/09/17/samsung-dvd-hd860-wont-display-closed-captioning/
10/01/2008 9:22 AM
Banjo, all of this is still new to me as I still have regular TV and from my understanding is that when HDTV comes out in full force (Jan 1?), anyone who does not have HDTV would need to buy a converter box and there are 40 dollar vouchers anyone can apply for to get a box.
Now, how will that converter box alleviate this problem that you just talked about?
Candy~
10/01/2008 11:38 AM
The digital television broadcasting system shouldn't be an issue. All you need is a converter box.
Digital broadcasts do not mean they are in HD. They are just digital, not analog.
10/01/2008 3:22 PM
Here is the figure that should clear up on HDMI that isn't accessible.
http://illustrator.blog-alloon.com/archives/308
10/01/2008 7:57 PM
Really - you are arguing with Banjo and you're losing
HMDI cable does NOT pass through captioning at all.
no arguing here - it does not.
Anonymous: go to your TV, turn off the CC - you ll see CC still going through..
I, myself is frustrated with HMDI also.
I have a HDTV, 1080i which I paid more for, and even salesman says '1080i' best picture etc.
but I cant use it, if my cable boxe does not have built in CC before it reaches my TV.
I have DirecTV setup, with DVR and HDTV - only way I can see captioning is have the DVR machine itself set up CC.
I can hook the DVR to a 8 inch LCD screen with NO CC and still see CC because the machine is doing it for me.
Now I have a 400 DVD Player, i hook up HMDI, it does NOT show CC. no matter what, there is no CC option on the DVD player itself.
but hey.. I called Sony - they say, use Component
ooh now my 1080i, 55 inch HDTV tv is now a 480i TV and is not that crisp.
what I pay for the sony HDTV feels like a rip off when I do that....
I am very afraid of the 2009 mandate, TV's dumping connectors to use HMDI (that brings another point - WHY is monster HMDI Cable 100 bucks or so while a Fry's one is 8 bucks ??? both same standard, and meets certification) and most of us deaf people are left in the dark
we find a great SALE at Best Buy - oooh thats last year's model I cant use it, so I cant grab the chance of the sale - because 2009+ TV's may have new HMDI with CC ?? what happens to us ? or new DVD player, you must make sure you buy new, and $$ cant buy used, because maybe no CC support
this is stupid on people's part pushing HMDI and not thinking of accessibility for the deaf/ HH people :(
10/01/2008 9:00 PM
Why not someone lawsuit with HDMI through ADA?
10/02/2008 10:37 AM
ADA have nothing with HDMI, only FCC.
10/03/2008 11:00 PM
hey everyone... I have 42 inches of flat screen TV. I have HDMI from DirecTV. It works so PRETTY! CC works so perfectly! I guess you didn't do the proper or whatever is it. HDMI is my BEST FRIEND!!!!
10/04/2008 1:10 AM
Anonymous...
DirecTV receiver has a CC decoder built in. We are talking about HDMI being unable to transmit CC information.
DirecTV overlay the CC onto the video instead of sending the CC information through the cable. It's not the same thing. We are talking about the TV being the main CC renderer and how we need HDMI to allow the CC signal to go through without having to rely on a TV receiver or a DVD player.
The TV should always be the main renderer of CC, not the TV receiver or DVD player.
It is a fact that HDMI cannot carry the CC signal.
10/04/2008 10:14 AM
Who user with FTA (free to air) and receiver with HDTV and HDMI don't work CC.
Banjo is right... other like directv, dishnetwork have own decoder built in.
10/08/2008 3:18 PM
I am hearing but my father is deaf. I like to have the captions on but my wife does not. I have an 1080p HDTV connected to a Comcast DVR. In order to turn on the captions coming from the DVR (which are ugly BTW) I have to turn off the device, then hit menu (to go to the service menu) then enable the captions. No "on the fly" on/off. Annoying.
10/17/2008 4:19 PM
Banjo,
HDMI is being replaced with DisplayPort which is a open industry standard while HDMI is propriety.
DisplayPort is now being used in both TV and Monitor
http://www.macworld.com/article/136196/2008/10/displayportfaq.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort
Cheers and Regards
10/28/2008 12:53 PM
Boult,
It is still worthless. Most TV and devices companies do not support DisplayPort yet. Also does CC signal pass thru DisplayPort? That's the concern we have for HDMI. My Sony HDTV does not have DisplayPort.
I looked up TV manufacturers, all of them does not have DisplayPort and did not even mention about planning to use it for their TVs.
It is only good between computers and monitors.
Right now, we are sitting dark in HDMI and CC technology.
For others to understand... TURN OFF your reciever's CC and TURN ON your HDTV's CC. remove all cables except for HDMI cable. Then you will understand!
11/13/2008 2:58 PM
I am with you Banjo. We need to do something. I agree with the above post to make stupid people understand your point Banjo.
Also wiki explains that HDMI doesnt support CC. (Scroll down to DVD section).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_captioning
Is that proof enough?
11/22/2008 9:50 AM
Why don't you also report to Greg Hlibok who works for FCC?
I repeat, Greg works for FCC can be your best network and he has the network contact within FCC.
Give your friend a call.
12/02/2008 8:32 AM
Hello! I think the concern is definitely important. I have Dish Network, and High Definition. The Closed Captioning is controlled by the receiver. It doesn't use my television at all. All the channels have closed captioning, except for the news stinks... Using text files from the propter. AAAH!!
Anyway, CC is carried on the video signal, they just need a way for the television to interpret that, OR provide the hardware to add captioning into the High Def signal. Kinda like the old fashioned CC machines of the past. I thought we were past that technology!
Or just purchase dish network, I'm glad they took care of the problem. Even if you HDMI. Thank you Dish! They care about this.
Just my thoughts!
12/03/2008 3:08 PM
Sadly it comes down “planning” big companies when they are in design of their products. Closed Captions support is not a that much more of a cost factor in comparison to the need of the Deaf and the benefit of reaching the deaf consumers.
The US government can’t force a company to build-in Closed Caption. The company can just choose not to sell their product in the USA. Figure that about 99.9% of this equipment is NOT MADE in the USA! The FCC is powerful, and legislation and compliance standards can help, but clearly the FCC is not in “total” control. This issue is much bigger than the FCC and wider than the US Deaf Consumer Community. The USA is becoming a smaller and smaller part of the customer base of buyers of TV equipment, the FCC is has less and less market influence globally as wealth is spread around the world. Actually I understand equipment has been made, sold successfully and simply not marketed in the USA, sometimes due to US FCC compliance – if manufacturers can’t sell in the USA they don’t always care to make product changes so it can be sold here! Focusing on the USA government agency is not the final answer for the Deaf.
There needs to be INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS. (Actually Lester likely knows about some of these International Electronics standards in his business.) The standards are really devised by the big manufacturing companies who have members of their staff participate on “Standards Boards” to determine things like cables and interface standards. To fix this problem, perhaps deaf advocates in China, Japan. Korea and WORLDWIDE NEED TO go and get the attention of the companies that make the equipment – this NOT just a “USA” DEAF issue and it should not be treated as if it s USA only.
Maybe consider asking Banjo to seek support of other Deaf you understand the problems as he does, but from other countries where products are designed and manufactured. Bring his problem to the manufacturers and government agencies in the countries where the decisions are made.
I do care. Communications and the Media need to be accessible to the deaf and it is very possible to do on a global scale, if the INTERNATIONAL standards are developed. When you consider the deaf worldwide Kevin, voice is that much more important and powerful. These problems CAN be resolved and I hope they are. If I can get more insight for you I will pass it to you.
12/05/2008 4:56 PM
Banjo, I have a question for you. We bought a new TV last year. The captions are very tiny, yet I see that I have options to make them bigger but they are grayed out. The TV company tells me it's because we get our service through AT & T and the caption display is being controlled by them. Is there any way around this? I want to be able to use the full features of my TV and feel very frustrated!
12/05/2008 7:03 PM
Karen, it sounds like the TV receiver is rendering the CC on its own instead of using the TV.
If it's a HDTV, you are pretty much out of luck. You will have to continue using the TV receiver to decode the CC. You should go into your TV receiver and see if there are more than one option for the CC style or not.
12/05/2008 10:39 PM
My Sony HDTV is working with the CC very well so far with HDMI.
Ken Davis
CEO / Founder
Deaf Newspaper LLC
www.deafnewspaper.com
12/06/2008 11:06 AM
Actually, it's either your TV receiver or the DVD player, not the TV doing the decoding. There is a difference.
It is an established fact that you cannot carry the CC signal over the HDMI cable.
A fact cannot be argued with.
12/07/2008 7:12 PM
hi i am deaf my name is nathan. so my hdmi is work with cc and you don't know how do right way and you don't know how to set up right way. i know your talk is bullshit. so you need read the direction or ask tech support to help.
12/07/2008 7:21 PM
and dvd have cc inside cd.... not in dvd player. so you must read the dirction.... no but!!!!!
12/08/2008 11:44 AM
Nathan, you clearly don't know what you are talking about.
12/09/2008 7:58 AM
I found this in a blog somewhere as well so thought I would pass it along, as it supports what Banjo said and discusses the "Line 21" standard that exists today on analog cables. This person also suggests that until the FCC gets the picture, your only alternative is to use analog (colored) cables in order to get your CC.
Jeff
Closed Captioning, by US law, are provided within line 21 of an analog TV signal and is geared toward the hearing impaired. Unlike subtitles which are usually focused on dialogs only, Closed Captioning are intended to transcribe the audio effects, along with musical vocals (this aspect is due to licensing issues).
DVDs have carried and supported Closed Captioning. Some companies take it a step further and have a subtitle option for the hearing impaired which output the same information as a Closed Captioning option would but in a subtitle form. However, this is a voluntary option.
Unfortunately, HDMI connections does not currently have any way to transmit closed captioning as the standards called for it. There are apparently two separate standards, the Line 21 standard, and the more modern MPEG standards. The vast majority of televisions available today does not support the second standard over HDMI connection. Also, the vast majority of contents are using the older Line 21 standard, which can not be sent over HDMI connections.
So, if you are getting a nice new TV, and hook up your DVD player over HDMI to the TV, do not be shocked to see a sheer absence of Closed Captioning.
We need to push the FCC and Canadian’s CRTC to establish a digital high definition standard to support Closed Captioning. Having an established standard will encourage our manufacturers to fall in line, and give us what we need.
12/10/2008 12:13 PM
I agree that the technology related to CC is a mess. It's not just HDMI cables or the HDMI spec. Let me share a brief example:
I just moved and got AT&T U-Verse. The U-Verse IPTV box has CC settings. I turned them on, and watched several shows (my TV is not connected via HDMI, but still...) a couple of shows, the U-Verse box would not show CC's BUT my TV picked up and showed the CC's. I'd prefer the U-Verse box CC's because they're more "transparent" and easier to read than my TV's CC's. Oh well.
I can understand why everyone above is getting frustrated and blaming Banjo for not understanding the issue correctly when he is just trying to shine the light on a problem he sees with CC's and HDMI.
Hopefully the FCC, the media industry, and tech industry can come together along with NAD, TDI, etc, and fix this ASAP.
However, there's one large piece missing - YOU. You need to make your voice heard. Tell NAD, TDI, FCC, your Senator/Representative, etc that this mess related to CC's is UNACCEPTABLE and it needs to be fixed.
Just because your setup seems to be the same as Banjo's and it works perfectly does not excuse you from attacking Banjo. It does not excuse you from doing nothing about this problem.
You do not know when your TV, your cable box, your DVD player, your PS3, or whatever equipment may break, and you replace it with something you think works the same, but doesn't. You'll be stuck without CC's. On the other hand, guess what, your media provider will have tech issues and you lose your CC's.
Do you realize that many Blu-Ray players are designed to be connected to the internet and can get electronic software updates? I'm sure many other devices either already do this, or will do so in the near future. What if one of these updates breaks CC functionality? You will be out of luck.
I've seen it happen, and the company responsible for breaking the CC functionality has never bothered to fix it. (I used to be able to burn DVD's from my TiVo on my Mac, and the CC's would be intact. I have not been able to do this for the last three years because the developer of the DVD burning software broke something in a new version and has not fixed it since!)
Make your voice heard now, or hold your silence forever! (or wait for the Star Trek universal translator to come along for real and do the CC's for us automatically everywhere! LOL)
Thanks Banjo for speaking up. Keep up the good work.
12/12/2008 7:59 PM
my name is Jon. I am deaf. I did test for hdtv with hdmi still works cc same i have playstation 3 have hdmi only works cc for dvds . Hdmi only will works for cc and directv, dishnetwork, dtv, and mediacom box cable ready built-in have hdmi for cc too. Hdtv will accept for cc.
# Vizio
# Magnavox
# Sharp
# Jvc
# Rca
# Sanyo
# Samsung
# Polaroid
# Emerson
# Element
# LG
# Pioneer
# Sylvania
# HITACHI
# PANASONIC
# PHILIPS
# SILICON IMAGE
# SONY
# THOMSON
# TOSHIBA
1/04/2009 12:26 PM
Banjo:
Thanks for providing a forum for folks to learn about and discuss this issue.
I sent the following to the HDMI Licensing wonks:
QUOTE:
From your FAQs, I see you are well aware that televisions connected to sources via HDMI cables do not display closed captions. Your totally unacceptable FAQ reply deflects responsiblity to the cable/satellite TV carriers and converter box manufacturers.
To rebut your 'pass the bucksmanship' in simple terms: The cable companies are sending closed captioned signals, but your HDMI technology does not allow those signals to pass to people's televisions. Any layman realizes that if we can see closed captions via composite, S-video, and component video cables, then we should be able to see the signal just as well via HDMI. The digital versus analog mumbo jumbo in your FAQ response is nothing but a cop out!
You need to rectify this problem now, rather than trying to pass the buck. The HDMI industry would be very wise to publicize far and wide its plans and timetable for correcting its tremendous oversight. I look forward to reading about either your upcoming 'we will fix it' campaign or the law suit resulting from your blatant infringement on the equal access rights of Americans! There is no dirth of attorneys prepared to champion this cause on behalf of the our nation's hearing impaired population. Can you say 'Class Action'?
END QUOTE
1/14/2009 12:20 PM
Banjo,
Karen pointed me to your website cuz I was getting VERY frustrated with the internet and captioning. Prime channels such as ABC, NBC post their tv shows online but the CC won't work for me. Same goes for videoclips of things that happened on different shows - news, talk shows, etc - no CC. I'm wondering if this is related to the HDMI you mentioned even though I'm using a computer?
I'm also going to, with your permission, post an article in our WSAD newsletter (deaf club in suburbs of Chicago) and on our website with all the information and how to contact FCC and HDMI companies to post a complaint.
Thanks!!
1/14/2009 8:26 PM
Kris, feel free to. The more awareness we spread, the more people will complain leading to changes.
Regarding the online shows, these are often done in the manner of streaming video, mostly flash. So they would have to include an external subtitles track for the video on the computer to be enabled. With computers, you always have to decode and render the CC within the computer. With video devices like DVD, VCR and Blu-ray players, they should be able to transmit the CC signal through the cables to the TV to be rendered onto the screen. However, the HDMI cable will not allow it.
Hope that's what you were looking for.
1/22/2009 12:32 AM
very true.. I have faced that problem myself.. it have to be the company's receiver's cc system for hdmi not from the hdtv's settings..
I did complain to my cable company and told me it was my HDTV setting for CC and I told them no.. until the day their technician come over and was puzzled.. I told technician I prefer my HDTV CC setting as of font I like not the receiver's CC's font if you know what I meant, smile.
So, it's kinda pain in the ass to switch back and forth for CC with HDMI on HD channels and back to my HDTV's setting for regular channels with the font I liked..
That's bummer as to why you bought a HDTV as of settings it provided that you like, and ended up cant use them when use HDMI..
2/01/2009 1:15 AM
I just purchased a Sony 52" XBR6 flat panel and Sony BDP-S550 BR player. I quickly found out that captions are not being displayed when using HDMI. I have spent considerable time researching on the internet to understand this problem. I appreciate Banjo posting this informative blog.
I can get the captions to display only if the captions are turned on at the cable box. My biggest gripe is that the text quality, even after making adjustments, is absolutely horrible. It basically looks like 1979 Atari 2600 graphics. Not only that, but the captions are done poorly and often omitted. I believe this is a problem with having a poor quality cable box. I am expecting a better cable box next week so I'm hoping there is improvement with the text quality. Until then, I am stuck using composite video which lets the TV do the decoding but I'm losing out on the HD. Something seriously needs to be done about this! Oh yeah, my Sony BR player does not have any caption features to turn on so I can only hope all the movies I want to watch have English subtitles.
2/04/2009 11:26 PM
I received a new cable box and the font has improved a little. It's still not as nice as my TV captions.
I decided to purchase a component video cable since that's the next step down and I expected that it would not have the same issue as HDMI of not transferring closed captions. But it looks like component does not transfer captions, either. Does anyone else have this problem with component?
2/05/2009 3:05 PM
I'm new to this forum and I'm also very interested in seeing the CC issue resolved. I also don't believe that subtitling does the same justice as CC in conveying the true meaning of any film.
In reading through this forum, though, I'm seeing a number of false statements. I'd like to jump in and offer my technical knowledge gained over the last 15 years.
HDMI and component video cables will NOT allow the TV to decode the CC signal.
Both S-Video and RGB (composite)cable WILL allow the TV to decode the CC signal.
For HDMI and component video cabling to convey CC, the source box (i.e. cable box like Scientific Atlanta 8300HD) has to decode and transfer the CC to the monitor.
There are some people who are complaining about the look of the captioning. You should be able to set the CC look by going into the Advanced Menu (read your manual for the setup options.)
There are some people who are complaining about CC being garbled...this is most likely due to the quality of the CC signal coming from the network, not from the provider or the box. Verizon, Cablevision, Comcast, it makes no difference who the provider is. A possible contributor to the problem may be the way the CC information is being included in the HD signal.
Furthermore, I have noticed that for those networks having both analog and HD channels, the CC is much better on analog. Also, I have noticed that that some networks have CC on the analog channel and no CC on the equivalent HD channel. A good example is the new MLB channel. I am pursuing this issue with the FCC complaint process.
2/05/2009 4:35 PM
According to this link on hdmi.org
http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#117
"HDMI carries and delivers all the rendered data, in its entirety (including CC), produced from the source device to the display device."
Is that source device as in the cable box? If so, then technically, it would not be "closed captions". If they mean source as in the signal from the wall, then HDMI can really transfer CC.
It is also mentioned that the decoding has been taken away from the TV and placed on the set top boxes.
It seems that the set top box is blocking the CC from being transferred and instead, does the decoding itself. I would prefer this be an option for the consumer; allow CC to pass through for the TV to decode or allow the set top box to decode.
I have already submitted a complaint to the FCC.
2/27/2009 7:25 AM
Banjo
I believe that the target of HDMI is not the correct one - actually it is caused by the analogue standard and technology used by CC in 'carrying' the captions that is incompatible with the digital technology used by HD devices including cables. Here in the UK we foresaw this and we converted our captioning into a digital format and now it is beautiful - one can record programmes without turning on CC and when watching it, call up CC and it appears and what is even better - if your hearing friends or family records a programme on their digital recorder - you can call up CC even if they do not have this technology as it is embedded in the digital code.
It is the persistence on the analogue standard by CCI that is holding you all back...
If they decide to convert to digital then this should not be a problem at all.
Cheers
Jeff
3/01/2009 2:19 PM
Jeff,
Is your television doing the decoding of CC or is that left up to your set top box?
My situation is that my cable box decodes he captions and overlays the caption onto the video prior to sending the signal to the TV via HDMI or component. I cannot choose otherwise, unless I want to captions at all. This is only the case with HD signal (780p and greater).
My issue here is that my box has no idea that I have a 52" TV and therefore the overlayed captions are proportional to the TV size. I'm left with terrible looking text, even on the best caption settings offered by my cable box.
If the cable box would just allow the video signal with CC to pass through to the TV, my TV would do the decoding and the captions would look beautiful.
4/03/2009 4:41 PM
Banjo
I've been researching this problem and I still don't understand completely. Let me explain why - I have a Dish network Vip222 HD dual channel receiver connected to my HDTV with an HDMI cable. In the back of the Satellite receiver I attached a local Phillips HD terrestrial antenna via RF connector. I am getting CC on all the local channels and intermit on the HD Travel channel. If HDMI is blocking the CC why am I getting CC on specific channels?
4/06/2009 7:00 PM
It's your satellite receiver that is doing the rendering of the CC, not your TV. If you check the menu on your receiver, you will see an option to enable or disable the CC.
The satellite receiver create an image of the CC then proceeds to overlay the video with an image of it.
So the CC itself is already a part of the picture and isn't being rendered by your TV. But if you want the TV to render the CC instead of the receiver, you have to send it through composite, s-video and component cables as long it is set at 480i (not 480p or higher).
The CC signal cannot be sent once it's above 480p and cannot be transmitted through the HDMI cable even if it's at 480i.
5/31/2009 12:37 PM
There is a new version - are you aware of any changes to cc? http://venturebeat.com/2009/05/27/new-version-of-hdmi-cables-brings-internet-into-consumer-electronics/
6/01/2009 9:15 AM
Bill, I read up on it a few days ago. Unfortunately, they aren't adding the support for closed captioning to the final specs for HDMI 1.4 just yet.
I'm not too pleased.
6/08/2009 11:32 PM
Has anyone seen these?
http://venturebeat.com/2009/05/27/new-version-of-hdmi-cables-brings-internet-into-consumer-electronics/
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/cac/
8/06/2009 3:55 AM
Hey I read your article about the dish tv and it was good to read it. Do you know that satellite TV has become one of the greatest technological inventions of today. Only few years back cable tv operators had a monopoly in the pay television industry, and within that time frame there are 30 million satellite TV subscribers.
12/03/2009 12:41 PM
Yesterday (Dec 2, 2009) I bought a LG LCD HDTV 26 inch at Best Buy in Ottawa Ontario Canada. Hooked it up, set up the closed caption and OMG the caption is TINY! I can't read it from where I am sitting 6 feet away! I found out I need to pay extra to my cable company for a digital box. EH!? NOT FAIR!