Comments on Banjo's World: Deaf Village, How About A Compromise?

HI Banjo, not a bad sugestion and I see where both...

2008-06-28T11:44:00.000-04:00

HI Banjo, not a bad sugestion and I see where both you and deaf village are coming from, but what about deaf people who dont have ASL? Limer me? I have Irish Sign Language, ISL which is similar but not the same as ASL, and for me the transcript subs and CC it brilliant :)

As much I have said nothing so far over this issu...

2008-06-24T13:08:00.000-04:00

As much I have said nothing so far over this issue til now. I have to agree with some of the stuff that GalaxyAngel has said. From what I seen it is been a making mountain out of mole hill. I have to grant Banjo just trying to offer a SUGGESTION. It is JUST a suggestion NOT pushing/shoving it. But it erupted like a volcano by some of you. I’m all for captioning vlogs or videos. But I’m also all 100% for OPTION to choose by the respect of other person feeling want to do it or not. It is totally up to them. It’s bad enough for many that are shy and would be willing make blog or vlogs to reconnect to the deaf community in internet world. I see both sides of the story but at the same time we got to be realistic about this situation. It is a bitter pill to swallow that we have been dealt with being “left out” by few or many. All of us have gone through it one time or another. But I can tell it has hit a major nerve for some of you. But come on, you can’t blame it on each of us. Blame it onto the one that left you out. Plus this topic is really over a mandatory of caption or transcript of the videos. Not the “left out” feeling situations by some of you. This is where I say it is making a mountain out of a molehill. Don’t sweat over the small stuff.

Banjo and everyone, "Why can't you accept others w...

2008-06-22T22:20:00.000-04:00

Banjo and everyone,

"Why can't you accept others who preferences close captions or no close captions?"

Seems you're not satisfy with DeafRead or DeafVideo.tv ?

Why can't everyone respect others who preferences no close captions on their video vlog?
Not necessary whine about this.
Move on and respect them.
Find Elsewhere!!

If someone who learning Sign Languages can find themselves and to learn their ASL only or come with close captions.
Whatever this is free country and free speech.

Whoever complain about DeafRead and Deafvideo.tv about no close caption because they are choose to and comfortable feel their home reason no close captions. What more, They aren't interested blogosphere. You have to accept and respect their wishes. You cannot force them and expecting "LEARN write the English grammar". Sound like you're being an ass-ho/e. Please advise you don't dare footing their preferences. Learn word "R-E-S-P-E-C-T" everyone diversity!

Actually I'm agree more with #63

Are you complain about other youtube or other video log have no close caption provided for Deaf Community example: Hearing people who not willing provide them close captions. Should we force Hearing people must typing close caption our rights accessible? I do not think so! Respect their choice!
Will do same thing.

compromise? Oh please give damn a break!

Wha..a...(ahem) Wasting this sh/t time debating for stupid tiny topic!

Arrgghh. One types a long answer, only to find out...

2008-06-22T17:26:00.000-04:00

Arrgghh. One types a long answer, only to find out it's not recorded.

Ann C, blogs aren't accessible to Deaf ASL users, either at DR. DR isn't hypocritical as it carries both blogs and ASL vlogs for everybody to choose. People fluent in English can still read the blogs and Deaf ASL users can watch the vlogs. So they both have equal footing.

Whereby the mandatory rule of this aggregator on the captioning of the vlogs excludes all ASL Deaf people weak in English skills. Blogs aren't accessible to them anyway. Effectively with that particular word, the door is slammed shut to a group of Deaf people. According to the majority of Deaf people, the exclusion divides the D/deaf Community instead of being inclusive and promoting unity and diversity. Unlike you who acknowledge this issue frankly, Kim, others deny the lack of inclusivity.

DVTV never claims to be inclusive.

Kim, no hard feelings. :)

Ann and MZ--I think we're having a disconnect. I ...

2008-06-22T15:41:00.000-04:00

Ann and MZ--
I think we're having a disconnect. I feel excluded in DeafRead.

I feel badly for those excluded from DeafVillage, but I don't see a good answer.

I'm not on the DV committee, so it isn't up to me to tell them how to promote their site. I'm simply a blogger here. That said, I will for sure encourage my late-deafened friends with blogs to join DV for the very reason that they require captioning on all vlogs.

Smiles MZ-- No hard feelings.

MZ,Some deaf have not been able to participate in ...

2008-06-22T14:51:00.000-04:00

MZ,

Some deaf have not been able to participate in DeafRead on an equal footing because many ASL vlogs were not captioned or transcribed, hence some of DR was not accessible to some deaf. It was hypocritical for DR to describe itself as diverse to begin with, if accessibility is open to some but not to others.

I don't see DV's policy as divisive to the deaf community. It's drawing the very people who were not able to participate in DR on an equal footing along with ASL vloggers who didn't caption or transcribe their vlogs. You and other v/bloggers who disagree with DV's policy have DeafRead and DVTV-- there's plenty of room for different deaf people to participate in the deaf blogosphere. Competition can be a healthy thing. Keeps things from getting stale or too one-sided.

Ann_C

Kim, This aggregator is also for the deaf people, ...

2008-06-22T10:59:00.000-04:00

Kim,

This aggregator is also for the deaf people, unlike other aggregators. By the way it is set up, not all deaf people can participate on an equal footing. The fact that the blogs are not being mandated to provide ASL translation for these people while the vlogs are required to be captioned shows the lack of diversity by refusing to make accommodations to everybody, only to people fluent in English. If they are made on a voluntary basis, I can understand that, but arbitrary mandates actively exclude Deaf people with weak literary skills. It strongly favors deaf oral people and hearing people. If that's what you want, then let's not perpetuate the myth of being fully accessible and embracing the diversity of all deaf people. It's the hypocrisy I am pointing out. The policy is also very divisive to the D/deaf community

We will have to agree to disagree here on principle, Kim :)

Hi Kim,I just wanted to let you know that I really...

2008-06-22T03:28:00.000-04:00

Hi Kim,

I just wanted to let you know that I really appreciate your comment #56. You've explained the purposes of requiring captions/subtitles or transcripts very well.

Thanks!

Rachel

Hi Tassielady-- The majority of deaf and HH do not...

2008-06-22T01:31:00.000-04:00

Hi Tassielady-- The majority of deaf and HH do not use ASL. 70% of all deaf are late-deafened who became deaf AFTER learning to speak English. The other thirty percent use a combination of English, SEE, PSE, Cueing, and ASL. Because SEE, PSE and Cueing all use English syntax, the majority can read and write English.

That's not even taking into account all the young deaf adults who have grown up with Cochlear Implants, who mostly use English instead of ASL.

Therefore MOST deaf/Deaf/HH people in America are literate, understand English and do not use ASL. I stand by what I said.

Deaf/HH people ARE literate and do not use ASL <--...

2008-06-22T00:57:00.000-04:00

Deaf/HH people ARE literate and do not use ASL <------ laughing you gotta be kidding me!!!!

you will find alot do use ASL i think you need to get out more !!

You do realize there are illiterate hearing people...

2008-06-22T00:26:00.000-04:00

You do realize there are illiterate hearing people too?

#5 applies to all so that the greatest number of deaf/Deaf can benefit. It means hearing vloggers must ALSO caption everything.

The problem is when you make a rule it has to be enforced uniformly. I noticed DeafRead has more stringent requirements for "hearing" bloggers. I have also noticed there are literate Deaf vloggers who don't caption or transcribe simply because they don't feel like it. Historically that meant people on the fringes of the deaf community-- the HH, the late-deafened, CI deaf and parents of CI deaf were left out in DeafRead. DV was created for that very reason! (smile)

If it were ONLY the illiterate who didn't caption or transcribe, I think we'd all be more understanding. It's just that I am quite aware of those with Masters degrees and what not who don't like to caption or transcribe because they don't like people like me in their community.

If DV were to drop the captioning requirement, it would mean hearing people-- such as parents of children with CI's and other CIer's who can hear well enough to understand spoken vlogs without captions could submit uncaptioned vlogs.

Likewise Deaf people who were capable of captioning, but didn't feel like it could also forego the captioning.

DV has made an effort to include as many deaf/Deaf/HH people as possible with guideline #5. It's only a very small minority of Deaf and hearing who can't caption or transcribe.

It's not that I don't care about illiterate people-- whether Deaf or hearing, but I see this guideline as a step toward the greater good, since the vast majority of deaf/
Deaf/HH people ARE literate and do not use ASL.

I realize you have your principles and you can decide not to be a part of DV if you like. However, I don't see that choice as a good way of promoting unity within the deaf community.

I too have principles. I believe access for more people is better than access for only a few people, which is what happens in DeafRead.

I understand your POV, but I disagree with you.

Kim :-)

I agree with Mishka. In this situation, I don't th...

2008-06-21T20:29:00.000-04:00

I agree with Mishka.

In this situation, I don't think it's possible for DV to live up to its promise of inclusivity for precisely the reason Kim gave. Therefore Mishka's solution makes sense.

Shelley

Kim, I understand. Perhaps you could suggest to DV...

2008-06-21T19:59:00.000-04:00

Kim, I understand. Perhaps you could suggest to DV the removal of the word inclusive. It would be more accurate as DV isn't inclusive.

HI MZ-- Practicing with other learners isn't the w...

2008-06-21T19:43:00.000-04:00

HI MZ-- Practicing with other learners isn't the way to become fluent. I get frustrated with Hearing students who don't take it seriously.

I've discussed the possiblity of hiring an ASL tutor and attending Deaf Camps. I need lots of practice.

I realize many Deaf have issues with literacy. Please realize that I'm over 50. It's not easy to learn new languages at my age. Watching non-transcribed or non-captioned vlogs is just as hard for me as it is for some to caption or transcribe their vlogs.

No matter how you cut it, SOMEONE will be excluded. Either them or me. There's no getting around it. My point is THEY already have DeafRead and DVTV. Up until DeafVillage was created, I had no fully accessible aggregator.

Ann C and Kim, Believe me, I do know it's not easy...

2008-06-21T17:29:00.000-04:00

Ann C and Kim,

Believe me, I do know it's not easy to learn a new language, especially ASL as it uses body parts one isn't accustomed for communication. When I went to Gallaudet, I only knew two words. It took me years to get where I am. So I do understand your frustrations. Really, interacting with ASL users in person is the best way to master ASL. Unfortunately, there is no short cut. Perhaps you can hire an ASL tutor to work with you or organize a club for you and other ASL students to practice.

The crux of the problem is that some ASL users have their own issues, especially with the literacy skills.

For example Seek Geo and Banjo are not the typical ASL users as they are very fluent in English. Some of the ASL users' writing are difficult to decipher... sometimes I need to think in ASL before I can make sense of what they are trying to express. As hard as they may try, they will never become competent in written English because they didn't have a solid language base during their early childhood.

Let's use an example. Suppose you are very weak in ASL. How would you feel if you are being asked to translate your blogs into ASL? Do you think you can do a good job? That's the scenario facing some ASL users.

I admit translating ASL to English is difficult, and I am proficient in both languages. Seriously some ASL users with weak English skills are unable to translate well.

Hi MZ (smile)-- The problem is ASL isn't as easy t...

2008-06-21T16:48:00.000-04:00

Hi MZ (smile)-- The problem is ASL isn't as easy to learn as most Deaf people think. I do well in ASL, REALLY. But I'm slow, and need explanations. I am still learning. My understanding isn't 100% in real life. I have to ask a lot of questions-- "Did you mean. . .?" I'm like a child.

If you accept the fact that ASL is a real language--which I do--then you must also accept the fact that it takes about seven years and intensive immersion/practice with native speakers to become fluent. Seven courses does NOT equal seven years by the say. I have the equivalent of two years. Each course was 10-12 weeks long.

I have a basic vocabulary of about 2000 signs? My ASL dictionary contains 5000 signs, not including regional differences and slang -- so I have a ways to go.

Further, the grammar and sentence structure is challenging to people who speak English as a first language. English, as you know, tends to be overly wordy and descriptive. If a person pairs down just to ASL gloss in written form, it takes a little while to get used to that for a native English speaker because it makes no sense at first.

Then add in classifiers, fingerspelling at light speed and the fact you can't look up an unknown sign. dictionary-- It's exceedingly difficult. ASL dictionaries aren't two-way like other foreign languages where you can look up an unknown word. Further there's no written form. So it's a very HANDS-ON language that has to be experienced first hand to become fluent.

AND to make matters worse-- many ASL Deaf don't want to have anything to with ASL learners, so we find it really hard to get that practice we so desperately need.

Incidently-- I much prefer transcribing over captioning. Or the ability to watch a vlog with or without captions, so I can watch the video as signed only, then guess to see how much I got.

Kim :-)

MZ,Learning anything takes some time, and that inc...

2008-06-21T16:44:00.000-04:00

MZ,

Learning anything takes some time, and that includes ASL. One has to take into account the availability of ASL resources such as classes, online video lessons, what one can or cannot afford, and proximity to places where the Deaf congregate.

Other factors: Some of us hold full-time jobs or have to look after family members so time resources are limited as well. Some of us are not exposed to other deaf individuals on a daily basis in order to keep up the practice. For me, ASL vlogs keep my practice up even though I have little access to ASL or other deaf individuals who use it. I'm doing what I can to learn it, with the limitations on my time and money. I know that vlogs are not the best way to learn ASL, but it's better than not at all.

The captioning is a tremendous help in understanding the gist of the vlogger's message, especially for one who is not yet proficient in ASL. I'm well aware that the captioning is not an exact translation of the ASL. Although I'm oral deaf, I like to know what is going on in the d/Deaf community, because we share many problems and concerns.

Ann_C

You do know that the blogs already exclude some AS...

2008-06-21T16:41:00.000-04:00

You do know that the blogs already exclude some ASL users. This guideline will be more exclusive, shutting out a certain group further. This defeats the original purpose of the aggregator, to be more inclusive. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Kim, please accept my apology. I was under the imp...

2008-06-21T15:30:00.000-04:00

Kim, please accept my apology. I was under the impression you were learning ASL. I know another blogger, Val, is.

So I am at a loss what the problem is, then.

MishkaZ--I've taken seven ASL courses-- four from ...

2008-06-21T14:27:00.000-04:00

MishkaZ--I've taken seven ASL courses-- four from community colleges and three from a Deaf center in Seattle. The past six classes were taught by Deaf people.

I'm not trying to learn ASL by watching vlogs. That would be ridiculous.

Um, Tassielady, MM is a Brit, actually a Welshman,...

2008-06-21T14:17:00.000-04:00

Um, Tassielady, MM is a Brit, actually a Welshman, and if he knows any sign language, that would be BSL, not ASL. BSL is different than ASL. I believe MM is making a case for inclusion, that is, captioning or a transcript with a vlog, so that he can understand an ASL vlogger's message.

Ann_C

KimIt's not ideal to try to learn sign language by...

2008-06-21T12:04:00.000-04:00

Kim

It's not ideal to try to learn sign language by watching vlogs as many times the translation of ASL is not by word by word into English.

I would suggest that you take sign language classes. Interaction with proficient ASL users in person is really the best way to learn ASL. That's how I learned sign language.

It's not the job of the vloggers and bloggers to start teaching the viewers the fine arts of ASL and written English. Their jobs are to present information in whatever they are interested in discussing with others. This is supposed to be enjoyable, not hard work.

It gets very complicated because ASL vloggers are using their natural language and some may be weak in English. In that case, watching the weak written English translation of these ASL vloggers would be very confusing because it may be hard to understand their English. Some are heavily written in ASL style. I've worked with enough ASL users professionally to see a wide spectrum of proficiency in English

Banjo-- I don't see it as a compromise or "inclusi...

2008-06-21T04:43:00.000-04:00

Banjo-- I don't see it as a compromise or "inclusion" because your "compromise" EXCLUDES people like me, who are already excluded from most DeafRead vlogs, DVTV, Youtube and other internet videos.

We get excluded everywhere already. Why can't y'all be happy with DeafRead?

"Banjo, No you can't force a horse to drink if it ...

2008-06-21T04:19:00.000-04:00

"Banjo, No you can't force a horse to drink if it doesn't want to, equally then you cannot insist others provide ASL for you. So you are going to quit asking for that access?"

MM, putting a spin on everything I say isn't going to help because they are simply not true. Don't put words into my mouth. It would be a nice change if you would start paying attention to what I say and see what I am really saying.

I was not demanding for the others to provide ASL for me. I don't need it. Did you even watch the vlog? If so, you should know that I was not demanding ASL vlogs.

What is truly wrong with wanting a compromise to take place? Instead, people here just nitpick and resort to fallible arguments without offering any real solutions or compromises.

How is this going to affect everybody? The icons would be there for everybody to see. By having that, everybody is able to decide for themselves rather than having people making decisions for the readers.

By having this discussion, you'll think it was about gay marriage! It's a compromise that may or will work. But the trick is to getting people to give it a shot.

I would rather be proactive and more inclusive of everybody rather than scaring them away. If you want people to caption their vlogs, encourage them. Don't rule them with an iron fist because it's not going to work.

"Banjo, No you can't force a horse to drink if it ...

2008-06-21T04:13:00.000-04:00

"Banjo, No you can't force a horse to drink if it doesn't want to, equally then you cannot insist others provide ASL for you. So you are going to quit asking for that access ? As we are into cliche's, sauce for the goose etc....You can't have your cake and eat it. It is the question of practicality, not politics. If we don't understand sign, we need captions to follow, this isn't a problem for you as you can follow both, we are asking you provide for those not as lucky or adept as you are. Access like charity should begin at home ! (That's enough cliche's and adages for one day !)."

MM im surprise you dont want to do ASL so what is your problem... do you really know what compromise means.. come on gimme a break. I for e.g only learn AUSLAN and i think its great to have caption so i can understand other different sign language and yes im oral as well because i was brought up in hearng world and yes i prefer both oral and sign language and prefer caption to give me a better understanding. I know 2 of my friends have CI and yes they do AUSLAN because they know they are deaf. Really you are being narrowminded and not seeing the BIGGER picture.

How about you start seeing the BIGGER picture rather than being a moron of yourself !!!!

PS i rather have caption and if you dont like it go and piss in the fucking tree when it doesnt talk back at you !!!

CIAO

Comments on Banjo's World: Deaf Village, How About A Compromise?

HI Banjo, not a bad sugestion and I see where both...

﻿As much I have said nothing so far over this issu...

Banjo and everyone, "Why can't you accept others w...

Arrgghh. One types a long answer, only to find out...

Ann and MZ--I think we're having a disconnect. I ...

MZ,Some deaf have not been able to participate in ...

Kim, This aggregator is also for the deaf people, ...

Hi Kim,I just wanted to let you know that I really...

Hi Tassielady-- The majority of deaf and HH do not...

Deaf/HH people ARE literate and do not use ASL <--...

You do realize there are illiterate hearing people...

I agree with Mishka. In this situation, I don't th...

Kim, I understand. Perhaps you could suggest to DV...

HI MZ-- Practicing with other learners isn't the w...

Ann C and Kim, Believe me, I do know it's not easy...

Hi MZ (smile)-- The problem is ASL isn't as easy t...

MZ,Learning anything takes some time, and that inc...

You do know that the blogs already exclude some AS...

Kim, please accept my apology. I was under the imp...

MishkaZ--I've taken seven ASL courses-- four from ...

Um, Tassielady, MM is a Brit, actually a Welshman,...

KimIt's not ideal to try to learn sign language by...

Banjo-- I don't see it as a compromise or "inclusi...

"Banjo, No you can't force a horse to drink if it ...

"Banjo, No you can't force a horse to drink if it ...

As much I have said nothing so far over this issu...