Comments on Banjo's World: Equal Access: HDMI is Inaccessible

Yesterday (Dec 2, 2009) I bought a LG LCD HDTV 26 ...

2009-12-03T12:41:59.627-05:00

Yesterday (Dec 2, 2009) I bought a LG LCD HDTV 26 inch at Best Buy in Ottawa Ontario Canada. Hooked it up, set up the closed caption and OMG the caption is TINY! I can't read it from where I am sitting 6 feet away! I found out I need to pay extra to my cable company for a digital box. EH!? NOT FAIR!

Hey I read your article about the dish tv and it w...

2009-08-06T03:55:33.862-04:00

Hey I read your article about the dish tv and it was good to read it. Do you know that satellite TV has become one of the greatest technological inventions of today. Only few years back cable tv operators had a monopoly in the pay television industry, and within that time frame there are 30 million satellite TV subscribers.

Has anyone seen these? http://venturebeat.com/200...

2009-06-08T23:32:08.471-04:00

Has anyone seen these?

http://venturebeat.com/2009/05/27/new-version-of-hdmi-cables-brings-internet-into-consumer-electronics/

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/cac/

Bill, I read up on it a few days ago. Unfortunatel...

2009-06-01T09:15:20.584-04:00

Bill, I read up on it a few days ago. Unfortunately, they aren't adding the support for closed captioning to the final specs for HDMI 1.4 just yet.

I'm not too pleased.

There is a new version - are you aware of any chan...

2009-05-31T12:37:10.825-04:00

There is a new version - are you aware of any changes to cc? http://venturebeat.com/2009/05/27/new-version-of-hdmi-cables-brings-internet-into-consumer-electronics/

It's your satellite receiver that is doing the ren...

2009-04-06T19:00:00.000-04:00

It's your satellite receiver that is doing the rendering of the CC, not your TV. If you check the menu on your receiver, you will see an option to enable or disable the CC.

The satellite receiver create an image of the CC then proceeds to overlay the video with an image of it.

So the CC itself is already a part of the picture and isn't being rendered by your TV. But if you want the TV to render the CC instead of the receiver, you have to send it through composite, s-video and component cables as long it is set at 480i (not 480p or higher).

The CC signal cannot be sent once it's above 480p and cannot be transmitted through the HDMI cable even if it's at 480i.

BanjoI've been researching this problem and I stil...

2009-04-03T16:41:00.000-04:00

Banjo
I've been researching this problem and I still don't understand completely. Let me explain why - I have a Dish network Vip222 HD dual channel receiver connected to my HDTV with an HDMI cable. In the back of the Satellite receiver I attached a local Phillips HD terrestrial antenna via RF connector. I am getting CC on all the local channels and intermit on the HD Travel channel. If HDMI is blocking the CC why am I getting CC on specific channels?

Jeff,Is your television doing the decoding of CC o...

2009-03-01T14:19:00.000-05:00

Jeff,

Is your television doing the decoding of CC or is that left up to your set top box?

My situation is that my cable box decodes he captions and overlays the caption onto the video prior to sending the signal to the TV via HDMI or component. I cannot choose otherwise, unless I want to captions at all. This is only the case with HD signal (780p and greater).

My issue here is that my box has no idea that I have a 52" TV and therefore the overlayed captions are proportional to the TV size. I'm left with terrible looking text, even on the best caption settings offered by my cable box.

If the cable box would just allow the video signal with CC to pass through to the TV, my TV would do the decoding and the captions would look beautiful.

BanjoI believe that the target of HDMI is not the ...

2009-02-27T07:25:00.000-05:00

Banjo
I believe that the target of HDMI is not the correct one - actually it is caused by the analogue standard and technology used by CC in 'carrying' the captions that is incompatible with the digital technology used by HD devices including cables. Here in the UK we foresaw this and we converted our captioning into a digital format and now it is beautiful - one can record programmes without turning on CC and when watching it, call up CC and it appears and what is even better - if your hearing friends or family records a programme on their digital recorder - you can call up CC even if they do not have this technology as it is embedded in the digital code.
It is the persistence on the analogue standard by CCI that is holding you all back...

If they decide to convert to digital then this should not be a problem at all.

Cheers

Jeff

According to this link on hdmi.orghttp://www.hdmi....

2009-02-05T16:35:00.000-05:00

According to this link on hdmi.org

http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#117

"HDMI carries and delivers all the rendered data, in its entirety (including CC), produced from the source device to the display device."

Is that source device as in the cable box? If so, then technically, it would not be "closed captions". If they mean source as in the signal from the wall, then HDMI can really transfer CC.

It is also mentioned that the decoding has been taken away from the TV and placed on the set top boxes.

It seems that the set top box is blocking the CC from being transferred and instead, does the decoding itself. I would prefer this be an option for the consumer; allow CC to pass through for the TV to decode or allow the set top box to decode.

I have already submitted a complaint to the FCC.

I'm new to this forum and I'm also very interested...

2009-02-05T15:05:00.000-05:00

I'm new to this forum and I'm also very interested in seeing the CC issue resolved. I also don't believe that subtitling does the same justice as CC in conveying the true meaning of any film.

In reading through this forum, though, I'm seeing a number of false statements. I'd like to jump in and offer my technical knowledge gained over the last 15 years.

HDMI and component video cables will NOT allow the TV to decode the CC signal.

Both S-Video and RGB (composite)cable WILL allow the TV to decode the CC signal.

For HDMI and component video cabling to convey CC, the source box (i.e. cable box like Scientific Atlanta 8300HD) has to decode and transfer the CC to the monitor.

There are some people who are complaining about the look of the captioning. You should be able to set the CC look by going into the Advanced Menu (read your manual for the setup options.)

There are some people who are complaining about CC being garbled...this is most likely due to the quality of the CC signal coming from the network, not from the provider or the box. Verizon, Cablevision, Comcast, it makes no difference who the provider is. A possible contributor to the problem may be the way the CC information is being included in the HD signal.

Furthermore, I have noticed that for those networks having both analog and HD channels, the CC is much better on analog. Also, I have noticed that that some networks have CC on the analog channel and no CC on the equivalent HD channel. A good example is the new MLB channel. I am pursuing this issue with the FCC complaint process.

I received a new cable box and the font has improv...

2009-02-04T23:26:00.000-05:00

I received a new cable box and the font has improved a little. It's still not as nice as my TV captions.

I decided to purchase a component video cable since that's the next step down and I expected that it would not have the same issue as HDMI of not transferring closed captions. But it looks like component does not transfer captions, either. Does anyone else have this problem with component?

I just purchased a Sony 52" XBR6 flat panel and So...

2009-02-01T01:15:00.000-05:00

I just purchased a Sony 52" XBR6 flat panel and Sony BDP-S550 BR player. I quickly found out that captions are not being displayed when using HDMI. I have spent considerable time researching on the internet to understand this problem. I appreciate Banjo posting this informative blog.

I can get the captions to display only if the captions are turned on at the cable box. My biggest gripe is that the text quality, even after making adjustments, is absolutely horrible. It basically looks like 1979 Atari 2600 graphics. Not only that, but the captions are done poorly and often omitted. I believe this is a problem with having a poor quality cable box. I am expecting a better cable box next week so I'm hoping there is improvement with the text quality. Until then, I am stuck using composite video which lets the TV do the decoding but I'm losing out on the HD. Something seriously needs to be done about this! Oh yeah, my Sony BR player does not have any caption features to turn on so I can only hope all the movies I want to watch have English subtitles.

very true.. I have faced that problem myself.. it...

2009-01-22T00:32:00.000-05:00

very true.. I have faced that problem myself.. it have to be the company's receiver's cc system for hdmi not from the hdtv's settings..

I did complain to my cable company and told me it was my HDTV setting for CC and I told them no.. until the day their technician come over and was puzzled.. I told technician I prefer my HDTV CC setting as of font I like not the receiver's CC's font if you know what I meant, smile.

So, it's kinda pain in the ass to switch back and forth for CC with HDMI on HD channels and back to my HDTV's setting for regular channels with the font I liked..

That's bummer as to why you bought a HDTV as of settings it provided that you like, and ended up cant use them when use HDMI..

Kris, feel free to. The more awareness we spread, ...

2009-01-14T20:26:00.000-05:00

Kris, feel free to. The more awareness we spread, the more people will complain leading to changes.

Regarding the online shows, these are often done in the manner of streaming video, mostly flash. So they would have to include an external subtitles track for the video on the computer to be enabled. With computers, you always have to decode and render the CC within the computer. With video devices like DVD, VCR and Blu-ray players, they should be able to transmit the CC signal through the cables to the TV to be rendered onto the screen. However, the HDMI cable will not allow it.

Hope that's what you were looking for.

Banjo,Karen pointed me to your website cuz I was g...

2009-01-14T12:20:00.000-05:00

Banjo,

Karen pointed me to your website cuz I was getting VERY frustrated with the internet and captioning. Prime channels such as ABC, NBC post their tv shows online but the CC won't work for me. Same goes for videoclips of things that happened on different shows - news, talk shows, etc - no CC. I'm wondering if this is related to the HDMI you mentioned even though I'm using a computer?

I'm also going to, with your permission, post an article in our WSAD newsletter (deaf club in suburbs of Chicago) and on our website with all the information and how to contact FCC and HDMI companies to post a complaint.

Thanks!!

Banjo:Thanks for providing a forum for folks to le...

2009-01-04T12:26:00.000-05:00

Banjo:

Thanks for providing a forum for folks to learn about and discuss this issue.

I sent the following to the HDMI Licensing wonks:

QUOTE:
From your FAQs, I see you are well aware that televisions connected to sources via HDMI cables do not display closed captions. Your totally unacceptable FAQ reply deflects responsiblity to the cable/satellite TV carriers and converter box manufacturers.

To rebut your 'pass the bucksmanship' in simple terms: The cable companies are sending closed captioned signals, but your HDMI technology does not allow those signals to pass to people's televisions. Any layman realizes that if we can see closed captions via composite, S-video, and component video cables, then we should be able to see the signal just as well via HDMI. The digital versus analog mumbo jumbo in your FAQ response is nothing but a cop out!

You need to rectify this problem now, rather than trying to pass the buck. The HDMI industry would be very wise to publicize far and wide its plans and timetable for correcting its tremendous oversight. I look forward to reading about either your upcoming 'we will fix it' campaign or the law suit resulting from your blatant infringement on the equal access rights of Americans! There is no dirth of attorneys prepared to champion this cause on behalf of the our nation's hearing impaired population. Can you say 'Class Action'?
END QUOTE

my name is Jon. I am deaf. I did test for hdtv wit...

2008-12-12T19:59:00.000-05:00

my name is Jon. I am deaf. I did test for hdtv with hdmi still works cc same i have playstation 3 have hdmi only works cc for dvds . Hdmi only will works for cc and directv, dishnetwork, dtv, and mediacom box cable ready built-in have hdmi for cc too. Hdtv will accept for cc.
# Vizio
# Magnavox
# Sharp
# Jvc
# Rca
# Sanyo
# Samsung
# Polaroid
# Emerson
# Element
# LG
# Pioneer
# Sylvania
# HITACHI
# PANASONIC
# PHILIPS
# SILICON IMAGE
# SONY
# THOMSON
# TOSHIBA

I agree that the technology related to CC is a mes...

2008-12-10T12:13:00.000-05:00

I agree that the technology related to CC is a mess. It's not just HDMI cables or the HDMI spec. Let me share a brief example:

I just moved and got AT&T U-Verse. The U-Verse IPTV box has CC settings. I turned them on, and watched several shows (my TV is not connected via HDMI, but still...) a couple of shows, the U-Verse box would not show CC's BUT my TV picked up and showed the CC's. I'd prefer the U-Verse box CC's because they're more "transparent" and easier to read than my TV's CC's. Oh well.

I can understand why everyone above is getting frustrated and blaming Banjo for not understanding the issue correctly when he is just trying to shine the light on a problem he sees with CC's and HDMI.

Hopefully the FCC, the media industry, and tech industry can come together along with NAD, TDI, etc, and fix this ASAP.

However, there's one large piece missing - YOU. You need to make your voice heard. Tell NAD, TDI, FCC, your Senator/Representative, etc that this mess related to CC's is UNACCEPTABLE and it needs to be fixed.

Just because your setup seems to be the same as Banjo's and it works perfectly does not excuse you from attacking Banjo. It does not excuse you from doing nothing about this problem.

You do not know when your TV, your cable box, your DVD player, your PS3, or whatever equipment may break, and you replace it with something you think works the same, but doesn't. You'll be stuck without CC's. On the other hand, guess what, your media provider will have tech issues and you lose your CC's.

Do you realize that many Blu-Ray players are designed to be connected to the internet and can get electronic software updates? I'm sure many other devices either already do this, or will do so in the near future. What if one of these updates breaks CC functionality? You will be out of luck.

I've seen it happen, and the company responsible for breaking the CC functionality has never bothered to fix it. (I used to be able to burn DVD's from my TiVo on my Mac, and the CC's would be intact. I have not been able to do this for the last three years because the developer of the DVD burning software broke something in a new version and has not fixed it since!)

Make your voice heard now, or hold your silence forever! (or wait for the Star Trek universal translator to come along for real and do the CC's for us automatically everywhere! LOL)

Thanks Banjo for speaking up. Keep up the good work.

I found this in a blog somewhere as well so though...

2008-12-09T07:58:00.000-05:00

I found this in a blog somewhere as well so thought I would pass it along, as it supports what Banjo said and discusses the "Line 21" standard that exists today on analog cables. This person also suggests that until the FCC gets the picture, your only alternative is to use analog (colored) cables in order to get your CC.
Jeff

Closed Captioning, by US law, are provided within line 21 of an analog TV signal and is geared toward the hearing impaired. Unlike subtitles which are usually focused on dialogs only, Closed Captioning are intended to transcribe the audio effects, along with musical vocals (this aspect is due to licensing issues).

DVDs have carried and supported Closed Captioning. Some companies take it a step further and have a subtitle option for the hearing impaired which output the same information as a Closed Captioning option would but in a subtitle form. However, this is a voluntary option.

Unfortunately, HDMI connections does not currently have any way to transmit closed captioning as the standards called for it. There are apparently two separate standards, the Line 21 standard, and the more modern MPEG standards. The vast majority of televisions available today does not support the second standard over HDMI connection. Also, the vast majority of contents are using the older Line 21 standard, which can not be sent over HDMI connections.

So, if you are getting a nice new TV, and hook up your DVD player over HDMI to the TV, do not be shocked to see a sheer absence of Closed Captioning.

We need to push the FCC and Canadian’s CRTC to establish a digital high definition standard to support Closed Captioning. Having an established standard will encourage our manufacturers to fall in line, and give us what we need.

Nathan, you clearly don't know what you are talkin...

2008-12-08T11:44:00.000-05:00

Nathan, you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

and dvd have cc inside cd.... not in dvd player. ...

2008-12-07T19:21:00.000-05:00

and dvd have cc inside cd.... not in dvd player. so you must read the dirction.... no but!!!!!

hi i am deaf my name is nathan. so my hdmi is work...

2008-12-07T19:12:00.000-05:00

hi i am deaf my name is nathan. so my hdmi is work with cc and you don't know how do right way and you don't know how to set up right way. i know your talk is bullshit. so you need read the direction or ask tech support to help.

Actually, it's either your TV receiver or the DVD ...

2008-12-06T11:06:00.000-05:00

Actually, it's either your TV receiver or the DVD player, not the TV doing the decoding. There is a difference.

It is an established fact that you cannot carry the CC signal over the HDMI cable.

A fact cannot be argued with.

My Sony HDTV is working with the CC very well so f...

2008-12-05T22:39:00.000-05:00

My Sony HDTV is working with the CC very well so far with HDMI.

Ken Davis
CEO / Founder
Deaf Newspaper LLC
www.deafnewspaper.com